An Tir Dearg

Hmm, hmmm, hmm......uniformity. I likes it XD

I am all in favor of limiting Realm Logo usage to Realm items, Realm loaner gear, and for personal use by tabard holders only (to include bandanas). That separates the dedicated players from the new, the lazy, and the otherwise un/less-dedicated. It is a privilege earned through the investment of some sweat, time, money, and hard work. As we've seen in the past, it can be no easy task to accomplish and should not be trivialized.

If we're going to allow tabard holders to place the Realm Logo on their personal garb, it's my opinion that we don't need to limit the color, size, or placement, with the caveat that the Realm should retain the right to require the logo be removed from offensive or just plain embarrassing garb as determined by a majority vote of the Realm Council.

Re: your last paragraph on color, its my opinion that we should make a rule that the only tabards allowable with "ATD" on them are the official Realm tabards in the official Realm colors. The logo can be used in any color, size, or location on other acceptable garb/gear, just not on tabards. And finally, I don't like the idea of a chevron, circle, or line distinguishing the Senior tabard.

Glad you posted this.

So, allow the logo to go on anything, BUT a tabard in whatever color? If we went down that road, I would think that we should also restrict it from belt flags and bandanas so that the color remains meaningful. In other words, the logo can only be on garb if the realm doesn't produce a garb item of that type. That pretty much only leaves outer garments, pants and fighting gear covers.

Personally, I don't prefer doing it that way. I'd like to be able to put the realm logo on my tabard that is not my realm produced ATD tabard. Somehow we have to preserve the distinction between the senior and the initiate tabards logos, though, and if they both look the same the only distinction is color. I'd rather not have a vibrant gold ATD on my muted black and green tabard, but if we decide on color being the way to tell, then I'd rather have it there than not have ATD represented on my tabard at all.

Is there another option? So far I can think of:

1. ATD logo can only appear on a gear item not produced by ATD so color is flexible and logo is unaltered.
2. ATD logo can be on any item of gear, but color must be preserved as on the tabard/belt flag/bandana.
3. ATD logo can be on any item of gear, but initiates may only use red. Senior tabard holders may use any color they choose.
4. Some distinguishing characteristic other than color is introduced to the senior tabard logo and any tabard holder can place the logo on any garb item in any color.

If we added something to the senior tabard logo, perhaps it would be cool if it was celtic flavored to go with our name. Here are a couple ideas I mocked up:

I agree, at Smiths when we get a new baggger they were a white shirt until they pass what is required of them, then they get a red shirt.
I think changing the logo to mabe something not fancy, mabe more blockish, something that would make it that would very obvious to anybody that they are not tabard holders just awesome supporters.

I do think we need to keep the wearing of the ATD something that needs to be worked for. I honestly don't know what would be the best way to keep it that way, but that's my feeling on it.

With the celtic knot, I like that second one, a lot neater design, if you ask me.

Yeah, that's how I envision it

Doesn't the ATD belt flag solve this issue? True, its not a tabard, but it is official Realm identification that can be worn while wearing other personal / unit garb. I understand and appreciate your desire to wear "ATD" on your unit tabard, but to me it seems odd to not just wear the official ATD tabard if you want to wear a tabard with ATD on it.

Perhaps the question we really need to ask is "Do we want to still do Realm tabards?" Maybe the way to solve this is to dissolve the concept of any Realm-sanctioned clothing and simply award people the privilege to wear the ATD logo on any piece of clothing so long as its not embarassing or will showcase the Realm in a bad light. If that's the way we're going, then it would make sense to differentiate the look of the ATD logo rather than the color for Basic / Senior tabards.

I really don't like this idea though, only because I like uniformity. My personal ideal is for the Realm (and the game as a whole in a perfect world) to look and act like an army out on the field, like the Royal Army or the Uruk Hai - staying together, following orders, and destroying opposing forces on the field and looking like an unstoppable force of clones while doing it. There is a powerful intimidation that can be tapped into with anonymity and the tabard enables individuals to look like a mass of same-minded warriors ready to do a collective job at killing the enemy. True, there needs to be drilling and practice as a large body of troops, but the look is the start of it.

If altering the logo for Senior tabard holders is something we want, I'd prefer more of a symmetrical design of knotwork going around the ATD - almost like laurel leaves, but celtic, and open at the top. I'm with Dusty that wearing "ATD" should remain only for those who have earned the tabard, however if we're going to allow anyone to use "ATD", then I also concur w/ Brian's idea that as long as a n00b's "ATD" doesn't look like the official design, then its good to go.

my .02

I am not super-excited about changing or adding anything to the logo and your comment on the belt flag brings an interesting idea to mind. Why not just make the belt flag the distinguishing device? Senior belt flags are gold, initiate flags are red. Period. Then people could put the logo on whatever gear in whatever size/color they like except gold until they've earned the senior tabard. After that even gold is available to use. The belt flag tells the whole story, though. Going down that road, the realm council marks (silver or gold strip) should also be on the belt flag.

Regarding the uniform look that Tibby brought up, I really agree with the idea and would like to see all realm members earn and wear an official realm tabard for realm battles. IMO, people should also be encouraged to develop unit uniformity as well, though. To that end, my new tabard will be black linen with Deshi embroidered down the center in green, the green phoenix below that and I'd like to put the ATD logo in the bottom corner in green if we go that route.

The belt flag is a good compromise and I think will suit everyone's needs.

Did we ever make a vote on this? To move from the tabard to the belt flag as what the Realm offers for recognition? Scottsman's senior tabard got me wondering.....

I don't think we did vote. I think there is still a general interest in maintaining the idea of the official tabard, with a red or yellow logo, and providing them for those that want them, but I move that we vote to make the belt flag the definitive symbol of ones' tabard and council status within the realm. We would allow tabard holders to use the official logo on their garb as they wished in whatever colors they wished so long as it could not be mistaken for the simple black with logo of the official realm tabard.

-snip- edited by Isk to move this portion to the Deshi forum for discussion.

Triquetra ( /traɪˈkwɛtrə/; Latin tri- "three" and quetrus "cornered") originally meant "triangle" and was used to refer to various three-cornered shapes. Nowadays, it has come to refer exclusively to a particular more complicated shape formed of three vesicae piscis, sometimes with an added circle in or around it. This has been used as a religious symbol of things and persons that are threefold.

"Inverting the Triquetra takes the "Heavenly" message to a dark perspective." A warning of an evil doer.
If my opinion carries any weight on this topic allow me to vote that should the triquetra be used then a non goat head symbol and without so many serpentine lines. In my view of the off field personalities and on field personna's there is not an evil doer amung us.

I forget how we discussed how this will identify council members.......stripes on the border? top? Refresh my memory.

I was thinking a silver or gold border down one side, probably the left.

I can dig that. The War Wolves have a diamond shaped patch at the bottom point of the sash too, which is highly visible if we care to go that route. Not too terribly hard to do, but the gold/silver edge can be done with just one length of bias tape.

It's easy and it visually ties into the epaulet on the tabard, IMHO.