An Tir Dearg

I pretty much agree on all points, Tibby. If Khalon would like to step in as secretary, I am more than willing to step down. I think Tona indicated Bear may be willing to take the position as well and I think he'd do fine job, too.

I like the idea of an event coordinating responsibility. Maybe we just need to delegate better to the realm council members certain aspects of getting it done. The trouble with that is that delegating and then needing to follow up to make sure it's done can take longer than just doing it yourself in the first place. Having a motivated individual in charge of organizing the event, but regularly reporting to the council could be a good approach. Planning the event was a big load for me as the realm leader.

I would support adding a weapons checking component to the initiate tabard. I think it's a great idea and should be a skill they have if they will join the realm as a full-fledged member. We would want to make a point of really putting tabard hopefuls through the weapons checking the previous week so they'd be likely to pass this test, IMO.

Agreed on weapons checking.

Bear could be an interesting person for the job as well, and I'd like to see what he can offer. Let's investigate the candidates and open the position up for election in a couple weeks when we're satisfied.

I completely agree that from a logistics standpoint, its so much more convenient to do everything by oneself, however, preferably I would also like to delegate the authority to Council members based on their real capabilities, without adding a new person to the and I don't think this is too much to ask. Organizing the event and making sure it runs smoothly and is completed is a lot of work for one or two people to do. I'm still not in any contact with the land owner down in Littlefield, AZ after several weeks of trying, so it looks like we're going to have to go with Sand Hollow.

[quasi rant]
This should mean that Council members are going to have to take a much more active role in helping to get the event up and running as far as a myriad of behind the scenes tasks are concerned. Then, while the event is running, it would be best if at least two Council members were on scene at all times - I plan on being there every minute of it barring emergencies since I'm the Realm Leader. While it is running, we'll need folks to worry about trash, fighting, feast, port a johns, and especially clean up after the fact. This should be mandatory. Last year was.....very disheartening to say the least having to do all of that by myself in the snow.

Now, all that said, it's all well and good as far as platitudes go, but how should this bode for Council members? Ideally, if they can't or won't do their share (whatever's decided, if anything - e.g. making it to practice regularly; foregoing fighting/hanging out when there's work to do; being a regular and accessible presence) it's my opinion that they shouldn't be on the Council regardless of what position they hold within a unit. I feel it may be beneficial for ATD to revise the Council makeup in such a way that all units still hold two positions, however the representatives must be willing and able to fulfill certain loose, but unalterable requirements in aid to the Realm with their time. If they can't fulfill those requirements then they don't get a vote.

While we've always been able to make do with what we have, and the Council has a good history of allowing the "spirit" of the rules to be fulfilled, I think that in a matter such as this (whatever we decide it to be, if anything) it would defeat the purpose to let people slide by with excuses because they mean well, but aren't supporting the Realm as is needed. It is unfair to the few who put forth the main effort to keep the Realm running. True, these persons volunteer for the position and should have a reasonable understanding of what the job entails, however we can do better. We're very much a family here in ATD and families need to pull together to make sure life is good. With more people volunteering and putting forth their efforts, we all end up doing less, and that means more fighting and fun for everyone.

I'm in favor of no more well-wishing from afar. To be in a position of leadership in this Realm, playing this game, should require a significant investment of time in order to be recognized in that regard. [/rant]

You make very good points Tibby. Another issue with the current structure is that there are a number of people (Scottsman and Patchiz, Bill and Bear) that would be willing to help out, but don't really get involved in the discussion, planning or delegation. How do we tap these folks and get them into the planning and support of our event and running the realm within the current leadership structure? Should we delegate responsibilities to the units and rely on the unit leaders to tap the skills of those within the unit or would that just create a needless beauracratic layer for things to get muddled in?

I honestly think the biggest issue we have with getting things spread out across the realm membership is a good structure/framework for delegation and reporting back/follow-up. This is partially my fault as I tend to do things myself more than is healthy for the group and it's also a growing stage for the group. Helping the group develop in this direction is one reason, although not the biggest, that I stepped down.

Let's start a vote to get the weapons check requirement added to tabard trials.

I started a discussion for the specifics of the weapon check portion. I'm sure we'll end up revising it before a vote.

Delegating tasks to units and then allowing the units to accomplish them in whatever manner they see fit is a good idea. It will allow more people to be in on the finer details of Realm operation as well as provide them an opportunity to experience stronger ties and sense of belonging / accomplishment. I'm definitely all for that. We would, of course, have to make sure that tasks delegated to units are realistic given their capabilities (age, finances, vehicle possession, etc). I would prefer this method over, say, involving all tabard holders in a large discussion, which realistically would have to be held at practice and take away time for fighting. I want all the tabard holders opinions, but our representative government functions that way already through Council members passing word and getting ideas from their unit members. Our brief message time at practice needs to stay brief, allow everyone to get information "straight from the horse's mouth" so to speak, and give them the opportunity to ask questions. I will begin to stress that units need to get together at practice or some other day to talk with each other about these sorts of things.

This method would allow ATD to maintain current governmental structure and accomplish more with less burden on those doing the work. However, I think that to make it happen would require more meetings between Council members - either in person or on the boards here. Not all Council members can or choose to attend practice or make their presence felt on the internet regularly. I feel strongly that this would need to change if we were to make a serious transition to this operating procedure.

I'm glad we're talking about this and I think that we'll definitely be able to accomplish our tasks much better with more people involved. I'd love to have Brian, Denise, Bear, Bill, and all others who have the drive but not the outlet at the moment involved more. That sense of belonging and accomplishment are vital to generating interest that runs deeper than simply partaking in an exercise or game session.

I agree with all that has been said, specifically the points made regarding council involvement.

As I understand it, if I am unable or unwilling to demonstrate increased assistance in the realms endeavors, then I would lose my council position (assuming I have one).

Though I really appreciate being on the council, or at least having some sort of say, I think it is fair that I would lose my voice in it due to lack of contributed support.

Let me clarify that the sole purpose of this discussion was and still is to garner more active participation by anyone willing and able to help the Realm out with a myriad of tasks, in what ways they can. This was never directed at individuals; rather the system as a whole. As Isk stated, our Realm is in a growing phase with our summer influx of participants, new tabard holders, new Realm leader, and fine tuning/getting started our event. With all these challenges and new bodies, we need more people to step up to maintain the status quo of how we are accustomed to our Realm operating. It's fully my intention to continue to develop the Realm at a local and national level, but things will need to change to accomplish these goals.

My particular suggestions were characteristic of my go-to method of punitive thinking; seeking "out with the old, in with the new" solutions. I figured it would be easier if those in leadership positions could give it their all, as opposed to numerous smaller contributions. It serves its purposes, but I know it has a lot of flaws and attempted to soften the impact towards the end of my post. Thankfully, Isk, in typical fashion, brought poignant thought tempered by his leadership, patience, and peace keeping tendencies and directed us to a much more moderate but no less successful course of action that maintains current Realm government structure while allowing more participation from all members. I fully support this new vision

Yes, Libra, you do have a position on the Council: you're the unit second for the Deshi, and this new way of managing our Realm's needs and delegating tasks to share the work load would not change that at all. You are a valued member of the Realm and someone I call a friend. Your fighting skills, your calm demeanor, your aggression, your jokes, our late night talks, and more importantly, simply you, are missed each Wednesday we practice without you. I can't tell you how glad I am when I see your car pull into the lot; it really brightens my day - already the high point of my week usually. I don't want to diminish your, or anyone's, involvement or your sense of belonging to our group. Some folks will see Belegarth and the Realm as nothing more than a hobby, some will take it more seriously but back off when life demands it, and others will go all out at all times because they can or because they choose this over other responsibilities. Except for perhaps the very last one I mentioned, there's no shame in prioritizing Belegarth these ways and it should not reflect negatively upon the individual; rather one should at times be commended for making these decisions.

On the flip side of that coin, however, is the reality that when senior members don't show up regularly, our sense of oneness and our effectiveness as a Realm is diminished. We don't have great people to teach, to spar, to bring gear, to be an extra body on the field and grow our ranks, or simply to hang around with. It puts more burden upon those who do attend regularly to fill all these roles and also lowers our retention ability when a new join gets disheartened at low turnout. Sometimes these things can be forgotten because we remember ATD's past heyday when a ton of great fighters showed up all the time and attended events together. Hell, I even look at my first event (Samhain) and fondly remember getting the fingers on my left hand smashed in the door of Isk's dad's truck by Joe or Mason. Yeah, it hurt and I thought I'd broken at least one finger, but in retrospect I was having a great time with even greater people, my friends, playing one of the greatest games on the planet. Sadly, these new joins do not have these experiences to get them through the rough patches.

I look at our Realm and see the potential for so much greatness in spite of our biggest pitfall: population from which to recruit. When I look at our friends in Barad'dun, they have so many more bodies show up and such a huge base from which to recruit, but their largest problem is not having no one wanting to get the work done, but rather no way to effectively manage the large number of folks willing and able to help out when and how they can. I don't want that for our Realm because its toxic. The instant people start being shunned and ignored, they become disgruntled and quit. Quitting is infectious and leads to poor morale and more quitting. I don't want people quitting from being ignored or lack of involvement, and I especially don't want people quitting because they're overworked. From an organizational stand point, even taking a break is wrought with danger because time can quickly add up until suddenly one is driving by the field and remembering, "Hey, I used to do that there with those people."

No one is going to lose their say in how the Realm is run unless they no longer hold a Council position, for whatever reason(s). As it stands now, I am not advocating anyone losing their Council position for their level of involvement in the Realm. That choice will be up to individual units. Isk's suggestion is by far the superior choice to attempt to incorporate more involvement and that's the way I want to run with this. All it will take is an announcement to the Realm, and some reminders to the units to make sure they're keeping up with tasks and involving anyone who wants to be. I think we'll be able to swing the extra meetings that will be required because we're going to hammer the point home that this is a group effort at each practice. I think WoR this year is going to be great, even if we're not allowed to use Sand Hollow the next year because they want insurance. Together we will make sure everything runs smoothly at all levels.

I hope this clarifies my intentions.

Tibby, you rock. Thanks for stepping up and taking the reigns and for starting this discussion. This is exactly what we needed to get WoR moving in the right direction. Reading this thread is honestly the first time I have started to get excited about WoR again. After last year I was really burned out on holding the event at all.

We have done this enough to know what we are doing. Let's make a list of the parts and start breaking it down. Here is a first list:

**Preparation**
Research and reserve location
Insurance or not
Plan fighting activities
Plan non-fighting activities
Prepare prizes or awards
Food
Build castle

**During Event**
Guide people to the event
Troll
Head of field Herald (run the fighting)
Other heralds
Head of feast
Night activity coordinator
Cleanup director (EVERYONE else helps cleanup)

Feel free to copy and expand

**Preparation**

• Research and reserve location - Still possibly in AZ if we can make contact. Else, Sand Hollow.
• Insurance or not - I'm all for NO insurance and downplaying what we are at Sand Hollow. Unknown if we'll need it in AZ
• Plan fighting activities - I like Forkbeard's mindset on this that fighting should be constant since weekend events are short. Downtime is not good. I think we should forego the castles this year. They're a lot of work to build and especially transport, look kind of hokie, and actually are a little dangerous. If we had something more permanent and of higher quality I'd go for it. I think they're kind of symbolic of how our events have turned out in the past. A clean, fresh slate is in order, IMO. As it is, we just don't need them to really have a good time. Open to suggestions on this, of course.
  MY SUGGESTED SCHEDULE
  
  • 0800 - Troll / weapon check
  • 0900 - pick up fights, Chaos various #'s
  • 1000 - Troll/weapon check closes. Unit battles, culminating in a "Warlord" match
  • 1030/1100 - Realm battles, culminating in a "Warlord" match
  • 1130/1200 - Line battles, heralds keep it fresh
  • 1300 - Lunch
  • 1330-1500 - Capture the flag / long lunch, come and go as you please
  • 1500-1700 - scenario battle? King rez? Interesting stuff to keep it going
  • 1700-1800 - 4 Horseman Tourney (randomized sufficiently :-P)
  • 1830/1900 - Feast, speech, awards - ANNOUNCE REALM ELECTIONS
  • 1930/2000 - Feast cleanup, nightlife starts...
• Plan non-fighting activities - Other than nightlife, do we want other activities?
• Prepare prizes or awards - I want to do the 4 horseman again, and the best garbed unit with flag streamer and first in line for feast. Should we also do a streamer for Unit and Realm battle winners as well (2 of 3)? Might make people think more of us. Thoughts?
• Food - im all for fried chicken, rolls, gatorade/juice, some fresh fruit, and an easy dessert. Maybe dessert can be homemade, but let's get the main feast from a place of repute. so its delicious, quick, easy, and done.
• Build castle - see above

**During Event**

• Guide people to the event - volunteers (hopefully won't be too hard)
• Troll - volunteers
• Head of field Herald (run the fighting / weapons check also) - I'll take this responsibility
• Other heralds - volunteers, all tabard holders present should be rotating throughout the event. I know we'll get guys from other Realms, but our folks must be present. 1 hour shifts, 2 at a time should be sufficient to work and play.
• Head of feast - volunteer. I suggest fried chicken so its plain and simple, from a tried and true place. This person will need to go get the food, pay for it, make sure its all accounted for, and set up / distribute feast with his minions to help.
• Night activity coordinator - I'd like to nominate Dusty if he'll accept because he's a fun and musical guy. He's better at that sort of stuff than anyone else in the Realm to my knowledge and should be able to help everyone have a good time. A Bardic competition would be a lot of fun, provided it's not as chaotic as the one at Yestare. These guidelines should be looked at: Fun, not mandatory, perhaps away from main fire, and governed.
• Cleanup director (EVERYONE else helps cleanup) - I'll head this up, but yes, everyone needs to help, whether its just filling up trash bags, policing camps, or taking bags to the dumpsters.

Please tear this apart and make this the event we all want.

Long discussion tonight about WoR and the following responsibilities were divided up:
Tona will do nightlife
I've got tokens and prizes
Tibby's reserving Sand Hollow
Bill's checking into the food

Tibby will be head of weapons check.
I'll be head field marshal.

Additional concerns about WoR:

Sand Hollow Special Event Policy
Special Use Permit Application

Even "family reunions" are supposed to register with this process. We'll need to amend that we're just a group going camping, and not mention any sort of organization at all.

I really think we run the risk of getting kicked out of the park though, once they realize what we are and what we're doing. The government is just so ridiculously repressive.

Thoughts?

*EDIT* - spoke w/ Sand Hollow Office Manager, Karen:

She said that "family reunions" don't need permits or insurance because its just family and everyone has their own insurance, etc and don't normally go around suing the parks system.

Thoughts?

So, Karen says a group of friends is enough like a family reunion? I'm not clear how far you went with that conversation. Do you think they'll kick us out or not?

Well, I said "friends and family", but definitely lead her along the lines that it wasn't an athletic thing at all. To be honest, I just don't know what they'll do once banners, garb, and a troll tent start coming out of the woodwork.

I think garb and the fighting will be less of a big deal than troll. Let's keep that low key.

I agree. Troll should probably be in a closed tent where someone comes in one at a time, no line outside (or at least as dispersed as possible), and money kept in their pockets until they're inside conducting business.

I know that soup got brought up at some point for food possibly. I went to RMC the other day and looked at pricing while I was there. They have about 8 different kinds of soup, and were all about $14 a 48oz bag (not sure how many that would feed).

If this is something to be considered we can always buy a bag and try it before to see if it is any good.

We should probably do that. I bet it'll be great; but testing it is a must.

Same with the soup Bill has offered to make. We need to test that also.

40 oz... by weight or volume? Do we add water to it?

If everyone's getting.....2 ladles let's say, and we'll budget for....100 people, that's 200 ladles of soup ~ 2 cups per person, with only one serving.

How does that sound?

2 cups per person doesn't sound like enough, IMO. Quantity is really critical to participant satisfaction.

Ok, so I was up there again today (I go there often). When I looked closer, ever kind of soup is a different size package but they are all around 45oz net weight. It is just add water(not sure how much) and heat.

As for quantity, I have to agree with Isk, 2 cups just doesn't seem enough. Personally I would want to eat around 4 cups plus bread. This may still be the cheapest way to go though depending on how much 1 package makes. Does anybody have a way to heat it up at the park? If so let me know and I will see if I can get a bag. Then all of our questions can be answered...

I have a couple of electric hotplates. I can bring one on out and we can warm us up some soup. My pan or yours?

All of my pots are up in Cedar so if we could use yours :-p. I will see about picking up a bag tomorrow and I will bring it with me.

K, soup is out. It only makes 2 quarts and costs $13.99...doesn't sound like a good plan. Also, when to go buy the soup and noticed that there is not a lot of meat in it so we might get complaints....I think if we are to do a stew hand making it might be the best way to go.